‘Inside UVA’: President Ryan, First Amendment Expert Talk Freedom of Speech in New Podcast

President Jim Ryan: And you were a Rhodes Scholar and I know the competition for those scholarships is fierce. So wonder if you could talk a little bit about the selection process?

Leslie Kendrick: Sure. I think that the quote that my hometown newspaper used afterwards was something like, “It wasn’t as traumatic as I thought it would be.” Which gives you a sense of my expectations and my great relief and pleasure when things worked out the way they did.

Ryan: Hi, everyone. I’m Jim Ryan, the president of the University of Virginia, and I’d like to welcome all of you to another episode of “Inside UVA.” This podcast is a chance for me to speak with some of the amazing people at the University and to learn more about what they do and who they are. My hope is that listeners will ultimately have a better understanding of how UVA works and a deeper appreciation of the remarkably talented and dedicated people who make UVA the institution it is.

Today I have the privilege of introducing you to professor Leslie Kendrick. She’s the White Burkett Miller Professor of Law and Public Affairs, as well as the director of the Center for the First Amendment at UVA Law School. She’s a former colleague and a longtime friend.

Her scholarly expertise includes free speech, torts and property law. She was a Rhodes Scholar. She’s been a visiting professor at UCLA Law School and Harvard Law School. She’s litigated cases before the Supreme Court of Virginia, the Western District of Virginia and the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit. She’s a recipient of UVA’s All-University Teaching Award. She’s a mother, wife, and although a native of Kentucky, I understand, a lover of all things Virginia.

Leslie, thanks for being here.

Kendrick: Thanks so much for having me, Jim.

Ryan: So let’s start at the beginning, and I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about your childhood, where you grew up, and what home and school were like?

Kendrick: Sure. So I grew up in Eastern Kentucky. I grew up on a holler, on a dirt road, with my parents and my two younger sisters. We lived between two towns of 3,000 people, about seven miles from each town.

Ryan: So it’s very urban.

Kendrick: Oh yeah, took the subway to school every day. Yeah. And my father’s family has been in Eastern Kentucky since Daniel Boone came through. I’m named for William Robert Leslie, who’s our ancestor who came into Kentucky along with Daniel Boone. And so my father’s family has been there for a long time.

My mother is an outsider, having come from another part of Kentucky. So that’s, you know, bold on my father’s part. My dad grew up there. His father, my grandfather, got the contract to help build the community college when a community college was built with war and poverty money in the early 1960s. My dad went to the community college, went to the University of Kentucky, then was drafted and went to Vietnam and ended up going to law school on the GI Bill in Louisville, and then decided to come back to Eastern Kentucky.

And so I grew up in kind of a generation of a lot of people who had chosen to be there one way or the other, like my dad coming back after going to law school, and had a lot of friends who had wound up in Eastern Kentucky because their family members, their parents were VISTA volunteers who had decided to settle there after their public service. There’s a really important and wonderful J1 visa program run by the Appalachian Regional Commission that brings in doctors who are looking to emigrate to the United States, facilitates their visa in exchange for service in Appalachia.

So I grew up in this place where we had loads of cousins and lots of traditions, and a really strong Eastern Kentucky accent. But we also had, you know, an incredibly diverse group of friends whose parents had come from all over the world. So it’s this very interesting combination of kind of what people think of when they think of Appalachia, and what people don’t think of when they think of Appalachia, and all of that was just combined. We didn’t know what was normal and what wasn’t. But it was a wonderful place to grow up with my family and with my friends there.

Ryan: And so you chose to attend the University of North Carolina. Was that a hard decision to leave Kentucky, or did your parents encourage you to look wherever you wanted to go?

Kendrick: It was, and it actually was kind of a two-step process. So, I actually went to boarding school for my last two years of high school after having been in public school in Kentucky all that time. And my school was wonderful, but at the end, you know, either you have things like AP classes and college counseling or you don’t, and there wasn’t a lot of that. So I ended up choosing a boarding school because it was the closest to Eastern Kentucky that I could get and still go away to school. So that was at the North Carolina Salem Academy in Winston Salem, North Carolina, and I went there for two years, and from there was lucky to receive a Moorhead Scholarship that paid for me to go to UNC.

So the big decision came in moving away for those last two years of high school. And then I was lucky to get kind of adopted by North Carolina as a second home.

Ryan: And you were a Rhodes Scholar, and I know the competition for those scholarships is fierce. So wonder if you can talk a little bit about the selection process? And then the experience itself?

Kendrick: Sure. Yeah, I feel very fortunate to have come through that process successfully. There are way more wonderful students in the United States who are deserving than there are Rhodes Scholarships.

So, the interview process was a very kind of rigorous process, 20 minutes of rapid-fire questions, and from people of all different disciplines and backgrounds. I didn’t know how it was going to go; I was very lucky and still feel very lucky that it turned out the way it did.

I loved being at Oxford. I loved it. I was studying English there with a kind of focus on classical influences on early English literature – no better place in the world to study Shakespeare obviously, and other literature that I was studying from that early modern period. And it’s just a truly beautiful place and a place very distinctive for the number of super brilliant people who just wanted to have a pint with you, or walk by the river or do something just, you know, very ordinary while having these amazing conversations. I felt lucky to spend time there.

Ryan: And when did law school come into the picture? Had you been thinking about that for awhile, or was it something that you decided to do while you were at Oxford?

Kendrick: It really started to occur to me during Oxford, although I think it was in the back of my head before that. My husband likes to say that I switched parents, because my mom is a creative writer who taught English literature before we were born and my dad is a lawyer. Although to be fair, they both went to English grad school before law school. But I think, you know, I really loved studying literature at Oxford. But I also really thought that was not necessarily what I had to do for a living. I didn’t feel it like a calling in that way. So I decided after that, I would go to law school.

Ryan: And I imagined someone who is a Rhodes Scholar has a lot of opportunities to choose among law schools. How did you decide on UVA?

Kendrick: Well, this is where I met someone named Jim Ryan who ended up having a huge influence on my life.

So as you know, I was thinking about where to go to law school. I mean, you’ll remember Dean Al Turnbull, who was the dean of admissions at the law school at the time, called me, and was the only admissions director to call me directly and said, “Leslie, you know, we’d like you to come down here and be considered for the scholarship and look around.”

And that visit really changed everything for me. And you know, to close the loop, the reason that I met Jim Ryan at that time was that you were the faculty adviser for the Dillard Scholarship program, the scholarship that I was involved with, and you had been a Dillard as well. So that was the first time that I got to meet you. … But I came and I met all these amazing professors and alumni and students. And I thought this is a place where I could really, not just go to law school and endure law school, but go to law school and enjoy law school and feel that I was thriving and developing not just as a law student, but as a person.

And it was certainly a bonus that it’s a six-hour drive from where I grew up; it felt very familiar, it was just on the other side of the mountains. Charlottesville has all of my same trees that I grew up with. So you know, all those things that I also cared about just kind of all fell together. And I feel so lucky to have had the chance to do that, and then to have gotten to stay for so many years after.

Ryan: Right. So you mentioned English literature. You are now an expert on free speech. I’ve got to think there’s a connection between your interest in literature and your interest in free speech law.

Kendrick: Oh, definitely. When I came to law school, I was coming because it seemed like there were so many things that you could do with law and that was such a big tent. And then I did the maybe not-very-creative thing of in some way sticking with what I knew.

I met Vince Blasi who was one of our former colleagues, now at Columbia, who taught freedom of speech and was working on Milton, was working on John Milton and the contributions he had made through “Areopagitica” and other writings to our understanding of freedom of speech. And I had studied Milton; I’d written my dissertation on the influence of the Aeneid on “Paradise Lost,” so I was very familiar with his prose writings and his positions on freedom of speech.

Milton – weird guy and not a pleasant guy, and, you know, super sexist, very sort of checkered relationships with his various wives and you know, sort of forced his daughters to take dictation of “Paradise Lost,” I’m not endorsing Milton at all around here, just to be clear, but you know, really an amazing thinker in so many ways, advocated for divorce long before that was something that the Church of England would remotely consider; advocated for freedom of speech, and was very disappointed when the English Republic chose to keep all the licensing laws that the crown had had, which said that you had to get a license before you could publish anything.

So, you know, meaning Vince, I realized there was this bridge from my past life to my current and future life in the law. And, you know, had a lot of intuitions about freedom of expression and how art and creative endeavors deserve protection there to just as much as, say, political discourse.

Ryan: Right. And because of your expertise, you were asked to chair the Committee on Free Expression and Free Inquiry at UVA. And I remain grateful for the fact that you said yes.

Can you tell us a little bit about that work? What was the hardest part? What was the most rewarding part? Are you happy with the end product?

Kendrick: Sure. So, I like the passive voice there, Jim, “I was asked,” I was asked by you.

Ryan: I confess by saying, I’m glad you said yes.

Kendrick: No, but I appreciate your including me in that endeavor. And I do think it was truly a team project to put together a statement affirming UVA’s commitment to free expression and free inquiry, that then you could review and if you approved it, send to the Board of Visitors. And that’s what happened; we sent you a unanimous statement, and you approved it and it went to the board.

I like to think that the process of developing that statement embodied all of the values that the statement’s about – of speaking with courage to each other, listening carefully and generously to each other, seeking to affirm common ground and common commitments. And doing that even when that can be a challenging process.

Ryan: Well, you’re being a little modest, because I saw this up close. But I’ve also heard from every member of the committee who commented on your incredibly deft leadership, and part of the reason why there was unanimous support, I think, has a lot to do with the work that you did and bringing people together.

I’m curious, now having gone through this and produced the statement, do you think it’s important that UVA has a statement? And if so, why?

Kendrick: What I think statements like this can do is serve as a touchstone for the community, that exists, you know, outside of the specific policies, which are very important, but can just be a reminder, and a salient reminder in a way that say, a policy directory isn’t, of this is an important value and this is why, and I think having that quick and ready touchstone can be really helpful to people when they’re thinking about, you know, “What’s my relationship to other people’s speech?” Or, “What’s my relationship to the thoughts that I want to espouse? And how I’m thinking about going about doing that?”

Ryan: Right. And what about just more generally, if you look across the landscape of higher education, how do you think free speech is doing on college campuses these days?

Kendrick: Well, you know, free speech has become, I think, a real flashpoint for people. And some of that’s coming from their own particular experiences. Some of it’s coming from very high-salience episodes from, you know, one institution or another across the United States.

I think it’s important for universities to talk about this and to say, you know, “How do we think we’re doing?” and to think about how they see free inquiry values being embodied kind of everyday – to think not just about, you know, this high-salience episode that happens some other place. And I think when you do that, the story becomes a much more diverse and interesting one.

Ryan: Yeah, that’s a really good point. Often these incidents are taken out of the context of the day-to-day. And so they’re surprising to those of us who are on college campuses who see the other 98% of the time.

So let me take you back in time a little bit and talk about some other jobs you’ve had. So you were a clerk to Judge Wilkinson on the Fourth Circuit, and then Justice Souter on the Supreme Court. And I’m curious, what was your takeaway from those experiences?

Kendrick: I loved those jobs. I was so lucky to get to work for both of those judges. And I’ll say one takeaway that I have is, I really appreciate that both of them hired ecumenically.

Judge Wilkinson could have looked at my résumé and said, “I’m not going to hire her, because her judicial ideology probably doesn’t match up exactly with mine.” And Justice Souter could have looked at me coming from Judge Wilkinson and could have said, “I’m not sure that her judicial ideology matches up with mine.” And that’s not how either of those people hired; they both were very proud of not hiring that way. And I appreciated that so much.

I met so many different people, both within my chambers and across chambers, with different perspectives. And I think there’s a real value to that, that goes back to the free inquiry values that we were just talking about. And I benefited from that both in terms of getting to work with those folks and also what I learned.

Ryan: Right. A job that you probably loved just as much, you were vice dean at the law school.

Kendrick: I was, I did love that job. As were you, you were vice dean when I was, yeah.

Ryan: I was, it was called something different back then, but it was the same job. So tell me a little bit about that experience.

Kendrick: Well, I loved being vice dean at the law school, I was working for Dean Risa Goluboff, who’s just a fabulous dean and a wonderful person. And as you know, our faculty is just unparalleled. And I would say also, our staff is just incredible. I worked really closely with our COO, CFO, with the Dean of Students, with the registrar – just such a hyper-competent, amazing group of people to work with, and I feel lucky that I got to do it.

Ryan: And was it during COVID that you carried around a six-foot pole?

Kendrick: Yes, so not all the time. But you know, there were so many different things that we had to do during COVID. And you know, the students were just amazing troupers, we were doing classes in distanced classrooms.

So the building folks had meted out with six foot poles, you know, these are the seats you can sit in. And sometimes there’d be groups of students around and, you know, sometimes they would just stand a little close to each other, because it’s so hard to maintain six feet of distance; it’s such an unnatural distance. So our COO had this six-foot of PVC piping in his office that had been utilized to do the seats and everything, and I said, “Hey, Steven, can I borrow your six-foot pole?” He said, “Sure.”

So I went down there one day after class, and I just walked around with it, like, “Hey, remember six feet?” And I would do it occasionally. And you know, I think for folks who are always having to do the reminding – really, really hard job to have to constantly remind students, you know, put your mask on and stay six feet and everything. But when they see you coming with the pole, they kind of laugh and they roll their eyes. They know why you’re coming. And it was like, “I can’t believe that, this part of the day is me walking around with a six-foot pole.” And then I’ll go off and do something, you know, talk about a research grant or something like that.

Ryan: Alright, last question: So I understand that you and your family have a goal of hitting every state park in Virginia. How far along are you and what’s been your favorite park so far?

Kendrick: So I want to get at least to every one that has overnight accommodations, because, say False Cape, you have to kind of, I think you have to paddle in or hike and I don’t think my kids are up for that.

Yeah, but I think we’ve probably only made it to about five so far, because we found Kiptopeke State Park on the Eastern Shore, and now we just keep going back to Kiptopeke. We love Kiptopeke State Park. And if you haven’t been, it’s gorgeous, just south of Cape Charles; it’s got this most amazing natural beach.

But we are trying to get to them. I love staying at the state parks and I particularly want to get to the original six that were opened all together in 1936 with WPA cabins and stay in some of those original cabins.

Ryan: Oh, thank you very much. And thanks for spending time with us. And on behalf of all of UVA, thanks for coming to law school at UVA in the first place.

Kendrick: Thank you for having me. It turned out to be a life-changing thing and a wonderful way for me, so thanks, Jim.

Ryan: I’m glad to hear that.

Mary Garner McGehee: “Inside UVA” is a production of WTJU 91.1 FM and the Office of the President at the University of Virginia. “Inside UVA” is produced by Kalea Obermeyer, Mary Garner McGehee, Brooke Whitehurst and Matt Weber. We also want to thank Leslie Kendrick, Maria Jones and McGregor McCance.

Our music is “Turning to You” from Blue Dot sessions. Listen and subscribe to “Inside UVA” on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

We’ll be back soon with another conversation about the life of the University.